Black Man and Family Moving to Columbia

Here is that series of posts titled Black Man and Family Moving to Columbia that has been going on for some days now. 

tmpauling posted: Good afternoon. I am an African American man living in Detroit, Michigan. I am looking to expatriate to South America in the next few years. I would like to get more information on how blacks are treated in Columbia specifically. I also have the following questions, and any insight that you could offer would be most appreciated. What places in Columbia are cheap to live in? What areas of Columbia have low crime etc.? What is the education like in Columbia; is it on par with the USA? What is the process of becoming a citizen of Columbia; is it expensive? How fast is the process? Thank you very much for your assistance. I look forward to your insights. God Bless.

Jarmstrong posted: My husband and I are moving to Cali Colombia, a lovely fun quite inexpensive city. I don't know the answers too many of your question but thought I'd reach out because my husband is for. Detroit too! Good luck

mawdsjeff posted: NO RACISM HERE!!! I am English and used to the racism there, although it is illegal. In Colombia no-one notices if any one is black or not, there are lots of inter-racial mixed people and therefore, there is every shade of person from white to black! The crime/violence I personally don't think is worse than you hear on the news from places in the states and UK. Guns are illegal here, as well. SO just some here for a holiday first, learn Spanish (A MUST) and get ready for a great time... Regards Geoff

ElinglesLoco posted: I would agree with Geoff, and also say that colour doesn't really come into it. There are many AfroCarribbean Colombians, mainly in the north of the country, around the coasts, Cartagena, Barranquilla, etc, and of course, our islands of San Andres and Providencia, and they never seem to have any problems. The answer is simply what you are as a person. You could be black, white, purple or green. People see you for the person you are. If you are a good person, they like you. If you are not a good person, (rude and arrogant) they don't like you. It’s as simple as that. But may I give a little advice? I know the problems throughout the whole of the USA with racism, and bigoted attitudes, and it is quite natural to be defensive if you are from a minority group who has experienced racism. But please don't blame race on anything that goes wrong in your life in Colombia. In the UK, a lot of people use the race card when things don't go their way, and race then becomes an issue whereas it wasn't an issue until then. You will get ignored, your emails don't get answered, they say they will call you back, but don't. People don't do what they are supposed to do, and put everything off till they have no alternative, but to do it. It is not because you are black. They are like that with everyone. If you then feel it might be because of your colour, it will only make an issue, where one didn't exist before. Colombians are like that. You have to get used to that, and instead of fighting everyone, just accept that that's how it is. But that is only a small price to pay, for the benefits of living there are enormous. The people are lovely, and they have values which we Brits and Americans lost, many years ago. The climate is what you want it to be. In the high areas like Bogota, it’s like a spring day, all year round. If you want heat, you just drive down the mountains for an hour or two, and you can be in 30 or 40 degrees. Everywhere in Colombia, you will find cheap places to live, and expensive places, often side by side. I avoid the most expensive areas, because if there are criminals operating, they target the rich areas where they will find the most wealth to steal. Pick a mid tier area, and you'll be ok. I can't be specific on all cities, for they vary so much, but in Bogota, you should avoid the south of the city. It might look cheap, but you don't want to live there. Honest! Those areas are very poor, and if you have a normal standard of living, you'll be seen as rich in comparison with them, and you will be a target. As regards crime, wherever you are, you should always have one eye on your own security. Drive with your car doors locked, or at the lights, someone might just open the back door and snatch something out of your car, or even your child. Try to live in a "conjunto cerrado" or gated community, where they will have guards on the gates. This is common throughout Colombian towns and cities. It does stop most criminals from getting close. Education is an attitude. The standards are quite good, but when I compare it to England, the main difference is that in so called "civillised" countries where they have good social security for their citizens, there is little incentive to learn and do well at school, for the state can take care of them if they don't get a good job. But in Colombia it is different. If they don't do well at school, they don't get a job. And if they don't get a job, they don't eat. Simple as that. So you will find that every child strives to do the best they can, so they stand the best chance in life. And every parent also strives to help their child do well. The end result is that the modern generation of younger Colombians actually can end up better educated than those from England or the USA, because of their incentives to do well. I can't tell you much about gaining citizenship, but there are many guys who can. I am running out of time, but I wish you well, and wish you a good experience in Colombia. I am not Colombian by birth, but I am Colombian by choice. Welcome.

chilango posted: I’m mexican and the people here in Colombia love me. in the USA, they treat me so bad, they think i am the worst of the worst. they look at me like i am from another planet. I’m not saying all, but i get it only about 20 times a day. if i park in a spot someone else wants, they yell and scream at me to go back to Mexico, or if they see me at an American football game they yell at me to go back to my country, and say horrible things to me in my face of friends and family. i could go on and on and on. But here in Colombia, they treat me so nice, and are very, very kind to me.  Also, about the US, if I am driving on the freeway the people drive next to me and flip me off numerous times, even if I’m with my mother. :( I’m glad I don’t have to go back to USA anymore, and live a peaceful life here in Colombia.

mdpalmer73 posted: welcome my friend glad your here I’m gringo from us where in the hell did u live in the us I been all over US and never heard of such a story , but whatever welcome.

mawdsjeff posted: So, all the movies and TV series I have been watching for years from the States are untrue eh? There aren't Hispanic people having to do gardening and cleaning. You yanks DON'T call Latin American people "SPICKS" TELL ME its all lies!! (Yeah right!!)

tmpauling posted: Where are you from?

mawdsjeff posted: I am from England, I worked with lots of black guys in London, and we had a good laugh, especially the West Indians, who can laugh at themselves! My wife is Colombian and knows all about racist taunts. Good luck mate....!

tmpauling posted: Good evening to you all. I have a question for you guys who have lived and traveled abroad and who are from the U.S. I am a black man with a family in Detroit, and with all honesty, Its really hard for me to envision countries that do not have racism as is in the U.S. As a black dude, we face racism every day and I don't want that for my family. The U.S. talks about freedom and justice, but as we can see with regards to the Trayvon Martin case, in many cases justice does not exist here in the states for people of color. My main goal is to raise my family in a place where they will, for the most part, be treated as a person and not an object of scorn. Yahweh created us all in his image and we all bleed red. Science has even proven that the first people were from Africa; yet people still have hatred in their guts.  In the last 2 years or so, I have been researching other countries and juggling in my mind if I should expatriate or not.  It is for this reason that I appreciate you guys giving me different perspectives from other countries. You are making our expatriation process easier; therefore, I can make a more informed decision for my family. All of your points are duly noted. Thanks

sensualspirit posted: Hi there, I wanted to PM you, but this site (don't like the software they use at all) isn't giving me a link to PM you with. If you can PM me, please do. Thanks Michelle

bcpa82 posted: Are you married to a Colombia? If not the Visa process might take a while keep that in mind. I am from Jersey and am know living in Barranquilla. (that's the north ) great city with beaches. Cost of living is relative depending on you. The private schools are excellent and I have 2 boys enrolled. Work can be tricky so give that some though. Spanish is a must so take that into consideration, though some people do speak English. As Far as crime, its Disney Land compares to Detroit.

masterita posted: ElinglesLoco pretty much hit the nail on the head. You will have to get used to the customs here, just as you would with any new country to move to. This is typically the most challenging and stressful part of adapting to your new country. The next is if your Spanish is not very good, the feeling of isolation. You will want to start networking and meeting other expats quickly and making local "native" friends. This will certainly help with your transition. But be a little leery for when people start telling how much they are helping you, insinuating they want something in return. This is part of their culture here and not to be taken personally. Most expats are happy to oblige but start becoming bitter quickly. Also the more you do it, the more it will become expected of you. When you stop giving, most people will become insulted. The next thing you need to accept that there is racism here as there is everywhere in the world, just not always as noticeable to all. I experienced it with my travels through Asia (where I was the minority). Here I had to ask a few of my black friends and they explained that most people are very friendly but they will "joke" about your color / stereo type. You and your family will have to semi-tolerate being called "negrito". This is another custom here and although typically not a racist slur it will obviously make you feel different. As far as different cities, crime rates, education, etc... Colombia is developing and changing quickly. Some for the good and some for the bad, so that would be a better question to ask when you are actually on the verge of getting ready to move down. As for Residency, there are several approaches but can change at anytime, again better to look into just before moving down. But the current rules requirements can be found at the following link: http://www.cancilleria.gov.co/servicios/colombia/visas/categorias_visa I have to run and I will try to answer some more questions later, but for the most part, the crew here did a pretty good job as usual. Cheers, Michael

GadoGadoGal posted: Hi TMPauling, There was a related topic posted last year which might provide you with some useful information: http://www.expatexchange.com/expat/index.cfm?frmid=190&tpcid=3362603 The group in this expat forum provides lots of great information, and there are lots of perspectives shared that are valid in their own way, but I would suggest you also look elsewhere for further information. For example, there is a group called Black Expat with it's own site and Facebook Page: http://blackexpat.com/new/ https://www.facebook.com/blackexpat Personally, I would add that skin color-based prejudices and discrimination exist here (light skin is definitely perceived as better), but they are just as likely weighed towards ethnically indigenous populations as they are Afro-Colombians. Below I provide links to just a variety of examples of blogs, research reports, and news articles on the subject in both English and Spanish: http://www.wola.org/commentary/racism_violence_continue_for_afro_colombians http://colombiareports.com/racism-rife-in-bogota/ http://delocombia.wordpress.com/2013/05/25/remembering-afro-colombian-liberation-a-brief-history-of-benkos-bioho-the-first-freed-community-of-the-americas/ http://www.decolonialtranslation.com/english/itwangeladaviscolombiaEng.html http://www.richardmccoll.com/tag/racism-in-colombia/ http://www.internal-displacement.org/8025708F004CE90B/(httpDocuments)/5D870F7B6C6752D3C12575E100492861/$file/Racial+discrimination,+Observatory.pdf http://observers.france24.com/content/20090324-black-president-colombia-forgot-racism-jose-nieto-gil http://www.utexas.edu/law/centers/humanrights/projects_and_publications/colombia-memo.pdf http://www.afrocolombians.org/Afro-Colombian%20News/Main%20Page.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Latin_American#Colombia Español: http://www.elbogotano.com/2012/06/16/racismo-clasismo-servilismo-y-discriminacion-social-en-colombia/ http://www.noticiascaracol.com/nacion/video-291094-tan-racista-hoy-la-sociedad-colombiana http://www.elcolombiano.com/BancoConocimiento/E/este_es_un_pais_racista_gamboa/este_es_un_pais_racista_gamboa.asp http://www.elespectador.com/noticias/politica/articulo-411627-colombia-aun-persiste-el-racismo http://diarioadn.co/vida/tendencias/tolerancia-racismo-en-colombia-1.33354 http://www.eltiempo.com/noticias/racismo http://www.eluniversal.com.co/cartagena/nacional/el-racismo-y-la-discriminacion-etnica-persisten-en-colombia-113043 http://www.peopleenespanol.com/article/choquibtown-afirma-que-colombia-es-racista

mawdsjeff posted: Here in Valle del Cauca, I have not seen any discrimination towards black people! Perhaps you should head this way! I come across black people all the time, they are called affectionately "negrito" or "negrita", and people who are very dark skinned are also addresses that way. It is no more harmful than me being called "Gringo"' . I didn't like it at first, because I am not American, but British. Come on.. please reply some other people who can confirm there isn't any discrimination by the native Colombians......I don't know about white immigrants, whether they put aside their prejudices here. Let’s have some more support thanks!!!!

masterita posted: I sure that from a Anglo Saxon or "white" point of view there is very little to no racism towards Caribbean people of African descent? or "blacks" in Colombia. However, according to my black Colombian friends (not me) there is an undertone of racism here in Colombia that flows inline with the society "casting" that happens here. Although there are many blacks along the coastlines of Colombia, they are still stereotyped due to major cities like Choco.  Choco is a department in Colombia very rich in resources but the people are severely taken advantage of for really no other reason because they are a minority group. They also tell me that they will hear many black jokes, not in an assaulting or mean way, but it does make them feel uncomfortable. At the end of the day they put on a happy face and act like it doesn't bother them because they don't want to make an issue out of it. So according to my black friends (again not me) they are often (not always) assumed a lower income class just because of their skin color. This is said to happen in every major city. However, since North Americans are assumed to have money that would likely bump you up a class so to say (as if that might even make you feel better). Sadly there is always a form of racism or bigotry in any country you will go to. It will happen anywhere and to anyone (whites too) are a minority, with very few small exceptions. However, here in Colombia it seems to be much softer. As far as them not calling you, showing up on time (or even at all), canceling meetings, asking you for spare change, etc (as ElinglesLoco said), well they do that to everyone here... or maybe just "gringos". Now that has me thinking :p Now I am not sure what difference between being an American or British has to do with being called "Gringo", as it is just a name for someone that speaks the Latin language with a heavy accent. However, over time I can correct my accent so I am no longer a "gringo". Sadly (playfully sarcastic) blacks can't loose their skin accent so the affectionate nickname of "negrito" or "negrita" will always be used. I guess it just depends on the type of person you are, but if I was constantly called "Gringo" everyday by people on the street (even before I opened my mouth to be labeled as one), it would get old quickly and I would start to feel like I was being segregated. But that is just me. Some people might not mind being segregated everywhere they go. It is kind of like being labeled as a gringo and you got money so you should pay more. It is kind of cute at first but gets old really quick. It doesn't always happen but when it does, it can start getting really annoying. In some small shops they should hang a sign saying "Prices may change according to your accent". Well that is my 2 pesos worth on this matter. Oh and thank you GadoGadoGal for posting those very useful links!

ElinglesLoco posted: Well, this has been an interesting, and unusual topic, which has set many of us thinking. The views expressed have all been how we ourselves see the subject, and there are many variations on the theme. Yes, there does seem to be a general consensus that our differences are what distinguishes us from the crowd, and I don't see this as a "racist" kind of thing. More like we have in the UK, where a Scottish person will be called "Jock" or "Mac", or a Welshman called "Taffy". Even "Negrito" will be used in that same way, and not as any kind of insult, but as an informal way of recognising our differences. "The brown one" is no different to us being called "The white one", or "The tall one", or "the one with 5 kids". But in comparison with Detroit, the differences are enormous. No-one I have ever known in Colombia has ever used those expressions as any kind of insult. Nor have I ever heard of race being used in any type of discriminatory way, being refused a job, served in a bar, or any of the violence and hatred you find in other "civilized" countries. As Masterita points out, there is, and probably will always be a kind of competitive 'casting', in much the same way as we Brits think we are better than you Americans, for we are more polite, courteous, and are gentlemen. You Americans think we Brits are the poor relation, always behind America in development, and everything you have is bigger and better than what we have ... (Including your mouths - English joke) .... and in Colombia, it is just the same. The white Spanish descendents do think they are superior to the native South American Indian, and I am sure the S A Indian thinks they are much better people than those savages who came over from Spain and wiped out all human race in their lands. This is no different to the example of the Brits v Americans quoted above. It is human nature to think that WE are better than anyone else, but it’s all light hearted banter, and absolutely no malice is ever intended. I have never heard of any of the problems that you find in Detroit, and again, I must stress that the Colombian people are some of the nicest people I have ever met in my life. If someone is down to their last crust of bread, they will share it with you. Anywhere else, they would kill you for it. Yes, there is poverty, and there is crime, but providing you keep an eye on your own security, as I said earlier, you should find no problems. One last piece of advice, is make sure you have some kind of safety net financially, for the unemployment is high, and there is a lot of competition for the available jobs. I recently quoted one of the schools, who advertised on their website, that they had over 1000 applications for each job they had available. You will either need a source of income, or a bit of capital, as there is no social security as such.

aconcepts posted: Mostly all antiquated thinking. Communities are made up of different colors. It culture and character that matter – not color – and there are many people of all colors that either have or lack good behavior. In my experience people discriminate more based on behavior than culture.  Take president Obama – a brilliant black man with a great education – I am biased towards him.  Take Charlie Manson – a fiendish white man with a poor education – I am biased against him.  Detroit is an American community. Yet many say Detroit is a black community. East LA is an American community or is it a Mexican community. Let’s go a step further, Irvine is a white community, or is it an Americana community. Or is it a world community? – Are there no other ethnicities in Irvine?  Is the United States not located on earth, and does earth not have a multitude of people with different colors? The US and Colombia are large countries and attitudes in Laguna Beach are much different than Detroit. Stereotyping people has some are doing by branding them according to nationalities only furthers divides people. Funny how people are so indoctrinated by the press and their culture and funny how people rely on antiquated thinking because its easy to use as it already exists – no need to think outside the box. What difference does skin color make – about the same difference as hair color. Yet the way opinions have been expressed in terms of skin color and nationalism shows that government and media has done a good job defining in many how they will speak and thinking regarding race. My challenge to most who think in the official line is to make your own line and way of thinking regarding these subjects. Something better than nationalities and colors… Two suggestions: Be the change you wish to see in the world or Free your mind and your ass will follow… Racism like the drug war and the military industrial complex is kept alive by the media and the media serves the powers that be. If you as individuals will not change your mind regarding how things are, then they will remain that way – to the benefit on the “leaders” – so remaining good little followers with narrow status quo views on the world at large is furthering racism, nationalism and war. It all changes or stays the same with you and how you choose to or not to use their paradigm of thinking.  I really like the views of the Brits on this form, but regarding their illustration used to make their case –it shows a lack of character – its devise – even if its intended to be light hearted – because it shows an indoctrination to the status quo – using the terms and thinking of those who want to perpetuate war and racism. Stuffy behavior and class based status is about as relevant as the British monarchy – both are used to perpetuate the status quo. Now I am showing my bias against government and social behaviors – not race or nationality. I am sure that there are many Britt’s that do not possess uppity attitude and class discrimination.

mawdsjeff posted: Great, two people in support of non-discrimination of black people. I spoke to a black man this morning and he said he had no discrimination at all in Valle del Cauca. I don't see the thrill people have of proving something negative. Why try and try to prove something is bad when it isn't? Geoff

tmpauling posted: I will have to come down there to Columbia and see for myself. Do you think that it would be better to stay in a hotel or a hostel? When I go down there, I am going with an open mind and no preconceived notions. I will be aware of my surroundings, but I will definitely give Columbia a blank canvas to paint it's image on.

mawdsjeff posted: I have now replied to the Black guy who initiated this thread recommending an American hostel I know, if he wants to come this way!!

ElinglesLoco posted: aconcepts. I found your post fascinating, but complex, in that you brought together many sides of the same argument, leaving me not knowing which way you were trying to go. I totally agree with a lot you say, even if the notion of "skin colour being of the same importance as hair colour" seems a little unrealistic. I, being possibly older than you, remember all too well, the race riots of Little Rock/Arkansas back in the 60's, in fact almost every year in that decade, right through to today. We have seen many horrendous examples ranging from Los Angeles in 1965 and again in the Rodney King incident, and of course, after Martin Luther king was murdered there was rioting, looting and burning in 125 cities throughout the USA. You can't trivialize the vast differences in people's attitudes and compare it with hair colour. You cannot pretend it doesn't exist, that it is just a press-led thing, not at all real. It is real. The tensions are at breaking point continually. They don't go away, and people are terrified to live a normal life, go out, or do normal things in case they get caught up in something horrific. In TMPauling's own city (Detroit), they have experienced racial problems on a massive scale, and I can understand why he is concerned about race problems in any future country that they consider moving to. When you talk about communities, and ask is it a white Community, an Americana community, or is it a world community, it seems you are searching for Utopia, where all things are equal, but TMPauling is asking a real question.... What is it like in Colombia?  In the real world?  I can honestly say, in my opinion, he and his family should experience a life free from the racial tensions that he finds in Detroit. But I do agree about stereotypes. Before I married a Colombian girl, I investigated the country, as I had heard so much bad about it, drugs, narco traffickers, kidnappings, robberies, murders, in fact Bogota was portrayed as the most violent city in the most violent country in the world. I wanted to be sure, so checked up on all the embassy reports. The US embassy tried to deter anyone at all from going there, their armed forces were banned from visiting Colombia, and the story they told was that it was almost guaranteed you would be shot by the drug barons, kidnapped for millions in ransom, and you simply wouldn't get out of the country alive. What a load of codswallop! In 15 years, I have never ever had a problem. Never had my pocket picked. Never been forced or threatened to carry a suspicious package, under threat of death, never ever seen a drug baron. I was left wondering what was wrong with me? Why do they not want to kill me? I felt like emptying my pockets on the street, saying "Look! I have money! Doesn't anyone want to rob me? Why not? Do you think I'm a simpleton? A disabled person? Do I look like I am destitute? I feel inadequate if even in Bogota nobody wants to rob me. Then it dawned on me. The people are really nice. They meet you as a complete stranger and the first words they tell you are "My house is your house". And they mean it. How nice is that? Even the poor people, they will share whatever little they have with you. I have travelled many places in the world in my lifetime, and I have never ever found a country or its people who are as generous, honest, and genuine. Then I went back home to England. Everyone who found out I had been to Colombia, all asked the same questions: "Isn't that where they grow drugs? Isn't that where you get killed? Did you meet any drug cartel bosses? And that's all they know about Colombia. They know nothing of what it is really like. They know nothing of the people there. But if only they knew, they could learn a lot from Colombia and its people. There is a lot more to Colombia than just drugs, kidnapping and murders. But no-one knows the nice things. And you know what? I'm not going to alter their opinions at all. I shall let them continue thinking that way. I am going to enjoy my life there without all the nauseating people from back home coming over and ruining it, like they do everywhere else. I am going to keep my paradise all to myself, and they can all stay living their miserable little lives in England, far from me, where I shall be very happy. I shall send them a postcard occasionally, saying how awful life is, and I am in fear of being kidnapped. Oh, and there is a drug baron lives next door, and he has the biggest machine gun I have ever seen. That should do the trick. Goodnight all.

Jarmstrong posted: Yes! I could not agree more about the lovely warm welcoming character of the Colombians.  My husband and I visited Cali in January and now have sold our house in New York and are headed back to Colombia, leaving the people here muttering about criminals and drugs. The only person who robbed us was the cab driver taking us from JFK to Port authority in NYC.

ElinglesLoco posted: Jarmstrong. Good for you, girl. Enjoy. Geoff. Thanks for the mail.  Have replied.  Cheers.

masterita posted: So I think we are all in agreement that we all think racism is bad. Colombians are very warm and friendly people. And that there is no racism here in Colombia, except for the minority of the minority that claim it exists. Which I guess makes them in the minority of the minority which is such a small minority, they are hardly worth calling them a minority. So that minority of the minority can be excluded from the minority report; which then in fact makes Colombia the only country in the world free of racism... and minorities too. So with that all cleared up, please disregard all of the news agencies, statistics, reports and groups, reporting, claiming and campaigning against racism in Colombia because it is all an elaborate hoax. If you Google the words "racism in Colombia" everything that comes up is only about the minority in the minority that was recently excluded from the minority group, making it non-existing. Oh and on a side note, there is NO gun violence here either because guns are outlawed and gun packing crazy Americans are not welcomed. ... I will say that I love this forum for its diverse views. It is quite normal to have a love for your new home country, to see it for all of its wonders and splendors; while overlooking the negative aspects of it. There is nothing wrong with that. In the USA we preach (and sadly not always practice) embrace our cultural heritage and not our differences. The USA has no tolerance for intolerance and the use of any words / names that segregate people from their community. Using the words like "Mick, Guinea, Wop, Nip, Mac, Taffy, Jock, etc" are consider racist and could cost you your job or get a kid kicked out of school and possibly arrested. Maybe most Americans have become too sensitive about being called racial slurs. I guess we are in fact "Yankee Doodle Dandies". Being from the US and growing up in a diverse neighborhood it doesn't offend me when I am called "Whitey" for my skin color or "WOP" for my ethnicity, but I don't appreciate constantly being referred to the color of my skin or ethnicity. So Colombians might call a dark person "negrito" in an affectionate way, but if I went around calling every Colombian I see "morenito" (little brown), I really don't think they would find it very affectionate.

ElinglesLoco posted: Masterita.  Some very wise words there. I especially like your very last sentence.  Makes you think twice about what we see as harmless/affectionate.  But at the end of the day, I still stand by my opening view on the matter, "People see you for the person you are. If you are a good person, they like you. If you are not a good person, (rude and arrogant) they don't like you. It’s as simple as that." And I think that is how it should be.

mawdsjeff posted: I agree with Masterita and Ingles Loco. It has been a fruitful discussion, and I hope to hear more from the guy who started it all when he has his holiday here. I am STILL improving my Spanish after 26 years, I have learnt more in this year than the previous 25 being immersed in it. The people where I live don't mind one little bit if I am a "confiansudo" and say "Hola mihija..que me cuenta?" Of course, in Bogota its different, my wife's friend who lives there told me that. I would probably have to say "Buenos dias su merced, como esta?" Geoff

aconcepts posted: hahahah el ingles loco loved your post. You have been to Colombia to experience it yourself. When was the last time you were in the states? If ever... I know racism is alive. Not that I am contributing to it or even thinking in terms laid out by the media - I refuse their poison. I am the change I wish to see. If its utopia - all the better. I like you and your posts - but your way of thinking perpetuates the stereotypes and the past - you related racism to what happened 50 years ago! My god! Do you think the world and race relations have changed a bit in 50 years. Do you think we could have had president Obama in the white house 50 years ago??? You are making my point by sticking to old media line about the watts riots etc, it’s this kind of backwards thinking that perpetuates the past. Play it forward = think utopia and perpetuate the future - be the change. One by One. If everybody thought like that we would eliminate racism.

aconcepts posted: Masterita! LOL "Morenito..." jajajajajjajaaaaaa Well said. A time and place for everything. Personally I am over the race thing. I am not denying it exists... I am affirming it does not exist in this heart. Words are powerful and the more we think in words the media uses to divide us - the more it reinforces the negatives used by those who want to keep racism healthy because they profit from it.

aconcepts posted: EIL - well said - and spot on - (was that Brit enough!?!)

aconcepts posted: EIL - well said - and spot on - (was that Brit enough!?!)

tmpauling posted: To: aconcepts I have never been to Columbia but will definitely consider going there on my S.A. trip this fall/winter. I don't know who you were responding to, but I have to say that you do seem free thinking and that is good. I think that if more people were judged by the inside instead of the outside, we would have a great world. My friend, I don't know if you are black or non-black, but you have to understand what black folks go through here in the states. Most other countries don't have the deeply seated racism, slavery, segregation and objectification that the U.S. has partaken in; which is one of the reasons why my family is looking to move somewhere different. You seem to downplay the seriousness and plight that people of color currently endure in the U.S. as though we are making things up. Yes, it would be great if we could all go through life passively picking tulips on the side of the road; ignoring the giant pink elephant in the middle of the room called racism. With regards to your statement/ question "Do you think the world and race relations have changed a bit in 50 years. Do you think we could have had president Obama in the white house 50 years ago???" I don’t know if you knew this, but a lot of folks up here call the 1950’s “The good old days.” Those just happened to be the days when blacks could be lynched on trees and young black boys and girls could be rapped and killed and no one would get prosecuted, especially in the south. "By the way in the U.S., yes people are not allowed to "lynch" folks anymore legally; or are they? Have you heard of the Trayvon Martin case aka a modern day lynching; where an overzealous guy who wanted to play super cop stalks a teenage black kid.  Causes a physical confrontation. Gets beat up during the fight that he started. Then pulls out a gun and kills the teenage black kid. Question for you? Has anything really changed, or have we just been led to believe that things have changed? I have friends in Florida and New Orleans who would tell you that “Ain’t nothing changed bro.” Even up here in Michigan, there are places that a black guy definitely doesn’t want to go after dark. (AKA sundown towns) So before we imagine a perfect world where everybody sings together and hold hands, we need to FIRST acknowledge the realities that are currently here; and only then can we soberly move on to the utopia that we all want and deserve. Many people believe that the U.S. is a country of freedom, democracy and peace. Really? Freedom? The U.S. has around 4.5% of the world’s population yet houses around 24% of the worlds prisoners. Democracy? Really? Peaceful protesters often get harassed and arrested; such as in occupy wall street movement. Peace? Are you serious? I’ll ask you a simple question. …When has the U.S. not be in a war? You asked the question if 50 years ago there could be a black president. I would say no. Why do I say that? Because racism was in full effect at that time. It was out in the open and cities would literally have lynching parties and gatherings where they would watch the murder of blacks. Whites were overtly racist nation wide because there were no repercussions to their actions as long as long as their actions were against blacks. Today, the whites who are racist are generally covertly racist. The system is still in place but instead of open hatred, they silently send money to the legal defense of an obvious murderer and racist like George Zimmerman. So, if you are a conscious and clear thinking person of any pigmentation, you can see the injustices that continually happen in the U.S. in 2013. No one is imagining or buying into the media’s perception of racism. As a person of color, all you have to do is live in most places in the U.S. and you’ll experience it first hand. Aconcepts, I am not trying to disrespect you or anything like that, but I just wanted to give you an inside perspective of why a lot of people of color here in the good old United States think like we do. Hopefully this is an eye opener and has been insightful for you. I agree with you that we do need to think “utopia.” But thinking is not enough we need to think, expose, plan and change. Only then can we arrive at the great point in history when men and women are judged on their character and NOT by the color of their skin. Thanks

tmpauling posted: To: aconcepts I have never been to Columbia but will definitely consider going there on my S.A. trip this fall/winter. I don't know who you were responding to, but I have to say that you do seem free thinking and that is good. I think that if more people were judged by the inside instead of the outside, we would have a great world. My friend, I don't know if you are black or non-black, but you have to understand what black folks go through here in the states. Most other countries don't have the deeply seated racism, slavery, segregation and objectification that the U.S. has partaken in; which is one of the reasons why my family is looking to move somewhere different. You seem to downplay the seriousness and plight that people of color currently endure in the U.S. as though we are making things up. Yes, it would be great if we could all go through life passively picking tulips on the side of the road; ignoring the giant pink elephant in the middle of the room called racism. With regards to your statement/ question "Do you think the world and race relations have changed a bit in 50 years. Do you think we could have had president Obama in the white house 50 years ago???" I don’t know if you knew this, but a lot of folks up here call the 1950’s “The good old days.” Those just happened to be the days when blacks could be lynched on trees and young black boys and girls could be rapped and killed and no one would get prosecuted, especially in the south. "By the way in the U.S., yes people are not allowed to "lynch" folks anymore legally; or are they? Have you heard of the Trayvon Martin case aka a modern day lynching; where an overzealous guy who wanted to play super cop stalks a teenage black kid. Causes a physical confrontation. Gets beat up during the fight that he started. Then pulls out a gun and kills the teenage black kid. Question for you? Has anything really changed, or have we just been led to believe that things have changed? I have friends in Florida and New Orleans who would tell you that “Ain’t nothing changed bro.” Even up here in Michigan, there are places that a black guy definitely doesn’t want to go after dark. (AKA sundown towns) So before we imagine a perfect world where everybody sings together and hold hands, we need to FIRST acknowledge the realities that are currently here; and only then can we soberly move on to the utopia that we all want and deserve. Many people believe that the U.S. is a country of freedom, democracy and peace. Really? Freedom? The U.S. has around 4.5% of the worlds population yet houses around 24% of the worlds prisoners. Democracy? Really? Peaceful protesters often get harassed and arrested; such as in occupy wall street movement. Peace? Are you serious? I’ll ask you a simple question. …When has the U.S. not be in a war? You asked the question if 50 years ago there could be a black president. I would say no. Why do I say that? Because racism was in full effect at that time. It was out in the open and cities would literally have lynching parties and gatherings where they would watch the murder of blacks. Whites were overtly racist nation wide because there were no repercussions to their actions as long as long as their actions were against blacks. Today, the whites who are racist are generally covertly racist. The system is still in place but instead of open hatred, they silently send money to the legal defense of an obvious murderer and racist like George Zimmerman. So, if you are a conscious and clear thinking person of any pigmentation, you can see the injustices that continually happen in the U.S. in 2013. No one is imagining or buying into the media’s perception of racism. As a person of color, all you have to do is live in most places in the U.S. and you’ll experience it first hand. Aconcepts, I am not trying to disrespect you or anything like that, but I just wanted to give you an inside perspective of why a lot of people of color here in the good old United States think like we do. Hopefully this is an eye opener and has been insightful for you. I agree with you that we do need to think “utopia.” But thinking is not enough we need to think, expose, plan and change. Only then can we arrive at the great point in history when men and women are judged on their character and NOT by the color of their skin. Thanks

psorensen posted: I have noticed not so much racial issues but divisions in social levels Los estratos At least in the larger cities the people in level 5 seem to discriminate against the working class or he estrato 1-2 that take the bus 1.5-2 hrs to work for their 700 mill a month. Comments against where someone came from where they live and what they do. I personally am much more comfortable with the lower estratos or even level 3 where I am seen and respected for the person I am rather than my wealth or lack of I believe this is more of an issue that race as a whole in Colombia Pete

aconcepts posted: The US is a large nation and attitudes in Detroit are different than attitudes in San Diego - as I said its community based, regard your rant on injustice - its up to us to define ourselves by either the good stories or the bad stories, If you define yourself with negativity its most likely you will attract it or see it. I don't think I am free thinking as in careless but in balance, which brings harmony. I would suggest that you too seek balance by not defining your future by the past. Have you seen 42 - The Jackie Robinson story. There is a man who rose to the top, transcended race and changed history.

tmpauling posted: I am not defining my future by my past. One thing that you don't seem to grasp is that the U.S. has not changed much since the 50's for people of color. Sure there are not town hall lynchings, but there are situations like the Trayvon Martin situation. A murder is a murder no matter if it is by the rope or by the bullet. For some reason you seem to be suggesting that racism is a thing of the past, and that we should act like it doesn't exist. This shows me how out of touch you are. By the way, what race are you? I agree with you that we shouldn't focus on the negative. However, you seem to be implying that racism is in a persons mind or that we just need to focus hard enough on other things and racism will magically go away like the boogey man. Are you serious? What planet are you on? You must be in la-la land. I wish I could be there with you but I have to live in the U.S., where anybody with common sense can see that racism and oppression is still in full effect. We ignore it. We try to act like it is gone but by doing so we are doing nothing but sweeping the problem under the rug. It must be exposed and then dealt with openly. Only then can we all live in a utopia. Yes Jackie Robinson did over a lot of obstacles, namely racism. Black people in the US are still overcoming racism. The fact that he overcame a racist system is just another testament to the strength of black folk. Are we supposed to just fall by the wayside? No. Jackie Robinson did what he was supposed to do and what we continue to do, which is to overcome. The fact that he pushed through to the top or that we have a bi-racial president doesn't mean that we are not to pay attention to the racism that still exists as a big problem here in the US. Even the President faces racism, death threats and racial rants. Jackie Robinson faced the same. So your point that a few black folks from the past have elevated to high positions does not answer the underlying poison of racism that most black folks face here in the states. I want my family to be able to live in a society where they are not judged so specifically on their skin color but more on their character; which is why I am searching out countries and on this website. I live in the real world of a black man in the U.S. I can't afford to live in la-la land right now. I have to deal with reality. I would appreciate it if you would not post on my posts unless you are bringing solutions to the table. Your idea of imagining that a problem does not exist and just "Thinking positive" is not enough. Hey aconcepts, Bring solutions or don't post.

aconcepts posted: "One thing that you don't seem to grasp is that the U.S. has not changed much since the 50's for people of color." You have to be kidding - I don't buy into the white guilt BS - so you are barking up the wrong tree playing the white guilt card with me. If you really believe that than I think you are the racist here... How many here agree that "in that the U.S. has not changed much since the 50's for people of color. " You have a major league chip on your shoulder - get over it and move on... angry black man syndrome, the perpetual victim crap - you are living in the past my friend - its a new day - "Say No to White Guilt!"

chilango posted: i agree with you aconcepts.  Maybe the rest of the people on here don’t, but I do.  And i am not even white. jajajaja

tmpauling posted: Can somebody PM me as to how do delete posts from trolls? I'd greatly appreciate it.

aconcepts posted: Chilingo - Neither am I. White guilt is an excuse to keep affirmative action in place and view blacks as victims and lesser. Listen to Larry Elder and Bill Cosby if you want rational views regarding solutions for lack of character and improper behavior in some US communities.

aconcepts posted: You have a not so hidden agenda - you want to see a troll - look in mirror...

Patricio posted: Original poster, there is a Columbia in South Carolina, Missouri, and a river in NW US with that name, and others, but you are talking about moving to Colombia SA. Little things I know but kinda muy importante! If you are thinking of expatriating, it is also a helpful to know some of the lingo I have found depending on your grasp of Espanol. Good luck.

aconcepts posted: Here is a good first step - learn how to spell Colombia

tmpauling posted: Dude, i suggest that you lay off of the pipe and get some help. Chrystal meth is a horrible thing.

aconcepts posted: People with attitudes like this are trouble magnates - he's gonna need good luck that is for sure - sure isn't gonna win and charm contests - I can just imagine when the first thing goes wrong he gonna think his food was late because of his skin color. Good luck at using your Racism Trap and rant in ColUUUmbia - I don't think you will find any white guilt to play to. Jeeeezz

aconcepts posted: be sure and turn on the light when you look in the mirror to find the troll...

dblyelo posted: I tried my best not to respond as soon as I saw the title I knew where this was headed.... For the trash bin. If you are seriously thinking about moving your family to South America and you have never visited with your family don't make moving plans. In most parts expect good friendly people however in my opinion the bias is based on character rather than color . As far as crime goes I would say it is worse than most cities in the United States and sad to say North Americans are usually a favorite target of street crimes. I lived in Cali for 5 months and saw the good and bad. Arrive with access to money because there is no hope for work of you do not speak Spanish and even if you do expect about half the wage for any U.S. job.  In my opinion aside from rent and utilities prices are higher than the United States considering the low wages groceries are slightly higher and even double if you put familiar brands to Americans in your cart. All that said I would prefer living in Colombia if there was work available for a gringo.

Jarmstrong posted: Many people have jobs they can do online these days making it possible to take your job wherever you are. Cities in Colombia have good Internet access. Just saying!

dblyelo posted: The U.S. hasn't changed since the 50's are you serious? I hope they delete this entire thread because it belongs in the garbage

schokolat posted: @mawdsjeff , come on there is racism everywhere. During my last 9 trips to Colombia, I always here something new from the "AfroCarribbean Colombians" you talk about. On the flip side, I think it depends on your social class.

mawdsjeff posted: I think what has happened is that it is SO RACIST in England, that the little there is of it here in Valle Del Cauca is not noticeable! It is illegal over there, but you cannot legislate against a thing like prejudice - it takes time to change a culture. When we lived in London 20 years ago, we were on a housing list for local authority homes. These are rented out cheap to lower income families. The staff in the part of the office in London who dealt with us was all afro-Carribeans and we had no chance of a flat being white. I didn't hold it against them, because English people were worse! I had a great time working with Jamaicans on the London Underground and was always laughing at the funny things they said. Geoff

masterita posted: @ElinglesLoco yes I agree that everyone should be treated equally to the person they are. However the problem is with that is people need to get to know each other first and we all will different perspectives of each other. Some people may think I am a great guy and others may think I am a pompous ass.  All a matter of perspective.  Better and simply the golden rule is the better way to go. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Very simple. There is no simple answer or reason for why there is still racism in the world but there is. You can't run from it. You will find even in Africa that blacks are prejudice towards other "types" of blacks. Whites are prejudice towards other whites because of class level, religion, heritage, etc. All you can do is try not to perpetuate it. As Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see in the world".